Use "node --run" instead of "npm run"

[KristjanESPERANTO]

This has the advantage that the package manager is no longer involved after the installation process.

However, previous start commands such as npm run start continue to work. So we don't even have to adapt the documentation.

[sdetweil]

what advantage is that for the user?

they just want the thing to run

[khassel]

I see it as cleanup and restriction to the real use cases:

• npm only for install/update dependencies
• node for running scripts

There is no advantage or disadvantage for the user.

[sdetweil]

so why add more confusion over what to do when?

i will advise no one to use this. and advise against

[KristjanESPERANTO]

I see the arguments against it and it's okay if we decide against it for now.

But for the user I see also these advantages:

1. it is more intuitive for users. Why should I use a package manager to start a script?

2. it reduces complexity. Which is helpful for understanding and also for troubleshooting, as the package manager no longer plays a role after installation. The user may therefore be able to solve their problem themselves more quickly or receive help more quickly.

[sdetweil]

the users dont know what a package manager is,
we have successfully graduated to they dont care about the technicalities of the base. witness the success of the docker deployment(almost, due to update issues for modules). they just want it to run!

they want to create an info panel. 90% of that content isn't ours at all.

lets focus on making it run with as few crazy options as possible. my objective is to make manual install,
upgrade and configuration including modules, go away

[KristjanESPERANTO]

the users

I think we have a very different picture of who “the users” are and what they want.

the users dont know what a package manager is,

It doesn't take magic to learn it.

they just want it to run!

But simple consumers are not our main target group. As I interpret our manifesto, we want to inspire people to learn, try things out, break stuff, create things and get involved 💥

If we confuse users when they come across both options, so much the better, then they will question it and learn. It's not as if the change would be a breaking change.

And if a user just wants to be a simple consumer, he can use a third party installation script and a module manager such as mmpm or even buy a system on Amazon.

In any case, a simple user won't care whether we use “npm run” or "node --run". An "old" user will use the old command, a "new" user the new one.

my objective is to make manual install, upgrade and configuration including modules, go away

The question is whether we need to do this in the core? The discussion about a graphical backend in the core (#3749) did not go in that direction, for example.

---

I think it would be good if we looked at the change mainly from a technical point of view. And as I understand it, there are fewer arguments against it than for it. But it is like a polish, the car will run without it and if there are others who think we shouldn't do it, I can live without this "polish" 🙂

[sdetweil]

i see the manifesto. i see the user community
there is still a ton to learn to make an info panel solution.

these are not simple consumers. just not wanting to become developers

npm has been 0.0001% of the support issues.

as for my goal, i didn't say HOW i would accomplish that. i haven't asked for any function from the base

[rejas]

I like this polish (although I can also understand the "dont change if it aint broke" mentality) and it seems to be the way forward.
Still would like to get either @khassel or @sdetweil approval before merging it.

[sdetweil]

i disagree with this pr. we have all kinds of other problems to solve without this unnecessary 'polish'

[bugsounet]

For once, i agree with @sdetweil

[KristjanESPERANTO]

we have all kinds of other problems ...

There are always more important things, but that has nothing to do with this PR. I haven't heard any concrete technical arguments against it. node --run is a new feature that node offers us, why shouldn't we use it?

without this unnecessary 'polish'

If I want to use MM independently from npm, it is not unnecessary.

For once, i agree with @sdetweil

Why?

[khassel]

As I already stated above:

There is no advantage or disadvantage for the user.

I think we should use node wherever possible. For me, it's cleaner not to use a package manager to launch scripts.

[rejas]

Ok, so I will merge it. Sams arguments are noted, but I agree with the other two more. lets hope node doesnt prove us wrong.

[KristjanESPERANTO]

Thanks guys! And if it turns out to be a wrong/bad decision, I will be happy to help reverse it. Nothing is set in stone.